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Sep. 16th, 2021 06:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pengwernthis goes here since I'm not up for pvp and this continues to be a place that feels like the rushes into which we can calumniate jerkass kings: it did take me this long to learn that aredhel's entire narrative is a straightforward retread of a specific child ballad/legend type which 1) makes sense - it felt like a bit of wackiness with more detail for a pocket of dynamics who doesn't show up much in the published silm than would be expected, although this is tolkien we're talking about; 2) doesn't work well with the actual ... everything.....about aredhel and the nolofinwions, mostly as while the noldor getting picked off one by one is hilarious from the distance of the overall arc, it's also not enjoyable as a narrative here, specifically - I had nearly turned away at this point (and I should probably take another look at the mariner's wife again for "women having a bad time in detail from the legendarium") and 3) I really have no more need to consider integrating the entirety of her story into my personal understanding of the silm, scatter flowers \o/.....if I ever had the chance to take that tolkien class at school. But while I'm aware there's plenty of....narratives that do hearken back to sources just like this one, such as maglor and his not entirely neat way of fitting under the "bard sorrowing by the sea strand in a way appealing to youths fed on the romantic celtic inspired children's books/fantasies of last century" (ok maybe some bards also wrought terrible deeds with their own hands idk, but dual genius bard and dutiful warlord of a long defeat do not seem to be ...? quite as common), the fate that falls over one of the few women described just two paragraphs earlier as fearless and hardy has that extra twist of not fun (not said she was wholly unwilling, wow??)
where was I
maglor
......he's a lot stabbier than your typical bard although my prototypes were probably Taliesin from a book I can no longer quite find (second floor children's library of harold washionton library center, had a key and something about wind on the cover? title? kids in the modern world looking back and awakening memories of something?) and also Menolly,
but (disclaimer to state that even though the feanorions sounded entertainingly stabby I was also fortunate enough to not actually read the bloodboiling whatever people were haranguing the partisans for the doriathrim/the sirion camps about) kidnap dads, which sounds like one person's headcanons -- where are you...like. getting the role of "dad" out of elves and small more human children. guardians, stern in the same tolkien way, of course, but several...millennia...of age difference.....there is probably enough xeno difference in those places should I care to look. but looking at the points that the elwing defend squad has to make and suddenly all my interest melts off the earth
and third, based on the recent illustration by catadroumously: not sure if they were going for the RWS deck art look, but Elros taking on king of wands and king of cups aspects, leaving elrond with the corresponding king of swords (complimentary) and pentacles is SO good -- elrond who provides his blade in stalwart service over the whole of the second and third ages along with all the material comforts of the last homely home, while elros goes forth to the building of the land of gift and being the wellspring of comfort -- as well as, if you wanted to draw links back to the noldor and the feanorions which not everyone does, swords and coins and worked metal of the "work of your hands" the elvish crafts that endure, while fire and water for the long homes of the other two silmarils, and mortality >_O
but of course both of them have The Star and the eight of swords that was Elwing before her leap :( as my first deck was shadowscapes which is filled with snuggly birbs, it's a very easy leap to make.
....I actually think there should be a pelican somewhere in the page of swords, too....
unworthy addition: nimloth is a grapefruit tree?
while I'm confessing to bad takes: how much of the noldor's popularity can be traced to like.....the convergence with rah rah freedom and not listening to authority figures trying to do the cautious thing, at least in current fandom of a few years ago over on tumblr? it's absolutely not all of it because I have blog proof that my first impression after the initial readthrough is "gemcrafting is SO hot and I do not even know about working with resin yet", but as one element out of many (other than the obvious, pagetime.)
...
although I wasn't in tolkien or lord of the rings fandom even in early childhood, and I seem to recall back then that there tended to be a strand of -- the noldor are NOBILITY and the silvan elves are LOWLY which ?????? was certainly not something that I would have assumed if I were reading the silmarillion. or if that too is one of those...culture imprinting itself lengthwise over text that doesn't necessarily suggest it
while I'm at it: nothing about a particularly stratified pre darkening Valinor makes sense to me either. I don't want to place strict numbers as Tolkien certainly didn't, but there's a major...leap from whatever they were with direct chats with the gods, that sense of the time of legends, to your incredibly dull and boring kingdoms with *politics*. I grant that people may invent fads and cycles within a very short amount of time, but there's got to be a difference when you still have the cuivenen elves around as members of the community, to say nothing of the actual maiar and ainur
and that's why some of the cn show aesthetics never really clicked for me, personally.
1) TIE YOUR HAIR UP FOR BATTLE AND THE FORGE JFC
2) that stifling involution....some places have it, maybe. doriath. Gondolin by the coming of tuor. numenor, maaaaybe? the sea adds a flavor and also the influences of adunaic....but these rag tag idiots running from morgoth? there's a specific pre-unification spring and autumn/warring states vibe to people raggedly trying to bring or preserve anything of beauty and light from the splintered former state when things were better, running from dragons and things being on fire ....and there's a disconnect sometimes. but I'm not complaining about those! just working through why it doesn't seem to mesh well for me.
mostly the non-work safe hair. I tried leaving my hair down and it's awful :< unless you make it clearer that elves have prehensile locks....
mostly I just need to go through more headcanons and real world equivalent to try anchoring some of these pockets of the story on, in an interesting way
where was I
maglor
......he's a lot stabbier than your typical bard although my prototypes were probably Taliesin from a book I can no longer quite find (second floor children's library of harold washionton library center, had a key and something about wind on the cover? title? kids in the modern world looking back and awakening memories of something?) and also Menolly,
but (disclaimer to state that even though the feanorions sounded entertainingly stabby I was also fortunate enough to not actually read the bloodboiling whatever people were haranguing the partisans for the doriathrim/the sirion camps about) kidnap dads, which sounds like one person's headcanons -- where are you...like. getting the role of "dad" out of elves and small more human children. guardians, stern in the same tolkien way, of course, but several...millennia...of age difference.....there is probably enough xeno difference in those places should I care to look. but looking at the points that the elwing defend squad has to make and suddenly all my interest melts off the earth
and third, based on the recent illustration by catadroumously: not sure if they were going for the RWS deck art look, but Elros taking on king of wands and king of cups aspects, leaving elrond with the corresponding king of swords (complimentary) and pentacles is SO good -- elrond who provides his blade in stalwart service over the whole of the second and third ages along with all the material comforts of the last homely home, while elros goes forth to the building of the land of gift and being the wellspring of comfort -- as well as, if you wanted to draw links back to the noldor and the feanorions which not everyone does, swords and coins and worked metal of the "work of your hands" the elvish crafts that endure, while fire and water for the long homes of the other two silmarils, and mortality >_O
but of course both of them have The Star and the eight of swords that was Elwing before her leap :( as my first deck was shadowscapes which is filled with snuggly birbs, it's a very easy leap to make.
....I actually think there should be a pelican somewhere in the page of swords, too....
unworthy addition: nimloth is a grapefruit tree?
while I'm confessing to bad takes: how much of the noldor's popularity can be traced to like.....the convergence with rah rah freedom and not listening to authority figures trying to do the cautious thing, at least in current fandom of a few years ago over on tumblr? it's absolutely not all of it because I have blog proof that my first impression after the initial readthrough is "gemcrafting is SO hot and I do not even know about working with resin yet", but as one element out of many (other than the obvious, pagetime.)
...
although I wasn't in tolkien or lord of the rings fandom even in early childhood, and I seem to recall back then that there tended to be a strand of -- the noldor are NOBILITY and the silvan elves are LOWLY which ?????? was certainly not something that I would have assumed if I were reading the silmarillion. or if that too is one of those...culture imprinting itself lengthwise over text that doesn't necessarily suggest it
while I'm at it: nothing about a particularly stratified pre darkening Valinor makes sense to me either. I don't want to place strict numbers as Tolkien certainly didn't, but there's a major...leap from whatever they were with direct chats with the gods, that sense of the time of legends, to your incredibly dull and boring kingdoms with *politics*. I grant that people may invent fads and cycles within a very short amount of time, but there's got to be a difference when you still have the cuivenen elves around as members of the community, to say nothing of the actual maiar and ainur
and that's why some of the cn show aesthetics never really clicked for me, personally.
1) TIE YOUR HAIR UP FOR BATTLE AND THE FORGE JFC
2) that stifling involution....some places have it, maybe. doriath. Gondolin by the coming of tuor. numenor, maaaaybe? the sea adds a flavor and also the influences of adunaic....but these rag tag idiots running from morgoth? there's a specific pre-unification spring and autumn/warring states vibe to people raggedly trying to bring or preserve anything of beauty and light from the splintered former state when things were better, running from dragons and things being on fire ....and there's a disconnect sometimes. but I'm not complaining about those! just working through why it doesn't seem to mesh well for me.
mostly the non-work safe hair. I tried leaving my hair down and it's awful :< unless you make it clearer that elves have prehensile locks....
mostly I just need to go through more headcanons and real world equivalent to try anchoring some of these pockets of the story on, in an interesting way
no subject
Date: 2021-09-17 04:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-18 01:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-18 01:25 am (UTC)PELWING FOREVER
Date: 2021-09-17 09:54 am (UTC)Also, Francis James Child definitely did not have a 21st century understanding of the effects of domestic abuse.
"women having a bad time in detail from the legendarium"
That certainly is a category. And their bad times are by and large so linked to their being women in a way that isn't true for the men. And their good times (and appearances in general) are fewer.
(ok maybe some bards also wrought terrible deeds with their own hands idk, but dual genius bard and dutiful warlord of a long defeat do not seem to be ...? quite as common)
No, that's quite specific. And cool. Warrior bard itself isn't an unusual trope, but that's usually a young (and underdog?) role.
Do you think Maglor fits with the Ishmael trope: and I only am escaped alone to tell thee?
I too was fortunate enough not to have been There, Gandalf for the Elwing wars.
where are you...like. getting the role of "dad" out of elves and small more human children. guardians, stern in the same tolkien way, of course, but several...millennia...of age difference.....there is probably enough xeno difference in those places should I care to look. but looking at the points that the elwing defend squad has to make and suddenly all my interest melts off the earth
Mind you, sternly distant guardian is a very accurate description of the expected parenting style of a 1950s gentry class father or mother (complete with hiring an employee to do the actual day to day parenting, and sending the child away to boarding school as soon as they're thirteen or even younger; although I don't think this is a point the pro-Dadlor&Daedhros faction are making.
I'd just been thinking today (although not in a Tolkien context until now) about how "dad" is a cultural construct that people seem to enjoy projecting characters into vastly beyond what's a necessary part of the role, and into archetype or stereotype. I have not yet read any Murder Dads fanfic in which Maglor tells Elros "Hi Gonna Kill You As Soon As I Can Reach, I'm Dad," or Maedhros plays Got Your Nose with Elrond, and yet I feel that if there wasn't already such a thing, I must have just Rule 65ed it into being.
And I've seen people do it with their own parents too, picking their angles to make them fit the mould of a TV parent, A Mum/Dad rather than just "my mum/dad". I think there must be an appeal to it, like astrology or sorting people into houses.
Not that I don't do it myself, or enjoy Murder Dads fic and art! Just that I stopped to wonder why and then it got weirder the more I looked.
the recent illustration by catadroumously
Thank you for sharing that, I hadn't seen it, and it has now destroyed me.
unworthy addition: nimloth is a grapefruit tree?
Unworthier addition: for a moment there it looked like raw meat to me, maybe a bit of cross-cut shank.
although I wasn't in tolkien or lord of the rings fandom even in early childhood, and I seem to recall back then that there tended to be a strand of -- the noldor are NOBILITY and the silvan elves are LOWLY which ?????? was certainly not something that I would have assumed if I were reading the silmarillion. or if that too is one of those...culture imprinting itself lengthwise over text that doesn't necessarily suggest it
Hmm. That's kind of what I osmosed from LOTR, which makes me wonder (without having reread in a very long time) whether the culture imprinting itself lengthwise is the reader's, or Mr Baggins'?
1) TIE YOUR HAIR UP FOR BATTLE AND THE FORGE JFC
HOW ELSE TO SHOW THE FORGE YOU AREN'T AFRAID OF IT?
mostly the non-work safe hair.
This is an entirely accurate way of putting it and yet also entirely hilarious because you mean actual work safety but for a moment I thought of hair-covering and religious modesty. Like, "tie your hair up so it's safe for work" vs "tie your hair up so it's safe for work".
unless you make it clearer that elves have prehensile locks....
Prehensile elf-hair = how to make Galadriel EVEN MORE TERRIFYING.
Re: PELWING FOREVER
Date: 2021-09-18 01:08 am (UTC)[their bad times are by and large so linked to their being women in a way that isn't true for the men] At some point one should probably stop wanting the text to be what it isn't, which is a fun and interesting exploration of women in a high fantasy :<
I think my other example of warrior bard may be one of those Nac Mac Feegle from Discworld. ...Apropos of nothing, the term used for elves in chinese is in fact /elves/, but not yet weathered to the 'tall thin marvelous terrifying' mode and so retains the tinkly tiny Victorian connotations and it's. It felt very weird to have that conversion happen where I can observe.
Maglor would be the BEST cryptid with a not-actual seabirb around his neck, if he didn't fade soon after the silmaril yeet. I believe there was a fic where he gets dragged onto Numenor and vainly attempts to shield Tar-Miriel (and ouch, that name at this end of time) from the oncoming wave?
https://archiveofourown.org/works/18178892
(We are as hobbits blithely winding up our pocket watches filled with moths while the arrows fly...)
Upon consideration, I can see "dad" as being one of those fun injoke memes, but once sufficiently repeated and expanded to Viewers Like Me becomes...twisted, and grating, to have it always shved into that mold...and I feel that the fic you posit must exist out there QWQ I mean on one hand I can wrap my head around why "murder dirtbag (a word I still don't fully get) dads" have that appeal, but also it doesn't collapse the waveform of the story that I have not yet decided upon in my head!
Maybe observation from reality/the text takes more effort than following along with what's already constructed for you on screen/tropes? >-<
Re Nimloth, did you read the Silver Chair in Narnia, and the way they described the gem tree fruits, or the other improbable fruit trees in the Magician's Nephew? ...some of that too.
[ whether the culture imprinting itself lengthwise is the reader's, or Mr Baggins'?] Oooh. here's where I confess to also not having read LotR in ages, which is certainly not a good thing, but I plead wanting to recreate the perfect atmosphere to preserve the fading sense memories anchored to that text (sound, touch, the rain falling outside on the balcony and the, uh, enya lyrics I practiced calligraphy on as a gradeschooler NOTHING IS CRINGY I REALLY ENJOYED IT \O/ XD)
-- but yeah, ok. On the reader's part, I'm probably making generalizations that don't work here, and on Mr Baggin's part - oh no am I actually interested in third age Rivendell at this end of time. About the composition of its denizens and the passing travelers and who would be creating narratives that would lend theirselves to Bilbo getting that impression...
(Fight that forge, Celebrimbor! Annatar needs to raise money for causes you don't need to worry about with his yearly Forge and F------- Calendar.)
Well, considering that Finwe's line is named for hair.............Radch:Hands and Finwe's line:Hair?